A couple of months ago, here and elsewhere, there was a discussion
about the nature of the requirement to contact ATC before entering
Class C airspace. The specific issues over which there was disagreement
were (i) whether contact with any ATC facility was sufficient, or
whether contact with the specific TRACON responsible for the airspace
in question was required; and (ii) whether a pilot receiving VFR
advisories from an ARTCC would be in violation of the FARs if he
continued into Class C airspace without having first been handed off to
the TRACON controlling that airspace.

To obtain guidance on these matters, I wrote a letter to the FAA Chief
Counsel seeking an opinion. I today received a reply, and I shall post
a link to this and to the original enquiry in PDF format once I have
scanned the document into a suitable format. The essence of the reply
is that (i) it is necessary to be in contact with the specific TRACON
responsible for the Class C rather than just any old ATC facility; and
(ii) that the receipt of VFR advisories does not absolve a pilot of his
responsibility to contact that TRACON before entering the airspace and
that he would therefore be in violation if he entered without so doing.

As I say, links to PDFs to follow.

Interesting query. At first I wondered how this situation ever arises,
then I remembered my VFR flight into Troutdale (TTD) which is in a
class D airspace that partially underlies and actually seems to invade
the overlying Class C of Portland (PDX). I was on flight following
from the southwest and couldn't find the TTD airport, so PDX approach
was kindly giving me help... "it's about 2 miles at 12 o'clock."
(Don't laugh; they're not always easy to find.) When he told me to
contact TTD tower, I got a rather exasperated reply on my callin that I
should have called them earlier. I meekly replied that I was with PDX
approach until then, and he said "Oh well, that was ok."
So, I guess I technically busted the Class D by not contacting them
while I was still talking to approach (within Class C) but was already
within 5 miles of the Class D airport. Frankly, since I was on radar
with approach control I felt it was safer for everyone to stay with
them until told to contact the local tower at TTD.

No, the approach controller was responsible for either coordinating
your transition through the class D or handing you off. In truth, I
believe there are areas of the class D that approach has agreements to
send arrivals.

> The confusion may come from that fact that if you
> are receiving flight following (or IFR) from center or
> some other facility and you fly through the class C
> you are ok, it is there responsibility to coordinate
> with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.

IFR, yes, but flight following, no. That's the whole point of the FAA's
reply. If you're getting flight following, it's still your
responsbility to know where you are and to make sure you're talking to
the TRACON before you enter the Class C. If Center doesn't hand you
off, that doesn't absolve you.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The confusion may come from that fact that if you are receiving flight
> following (or IFR) from center or some other facility and you fly
> through the class C you are ok, it is there responsibility to
> coordinate with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.

But its being their responsibility doesn't mean that it isn't still the
pilot's responsibility too (in the case of VFR flight following). In fact,
the AIM (3-2-1d) says "It is the responsibility of the pilot to insure that
ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry
into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. *The pilot retains this
responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories*." (emphasis added).

So even when I'm receiving flight following, I assume I need to talk to the
tower or approach controller of the facility whose airspace I'm about to
transit, except if the chart notes otherwise (for example, in the case of
several satellites whose Class D airspace is underneath Boston's Class B,
the chart says to contact Boston Approach to transit the Class D above a
certain altitude). In practice, though, I can't recall any time that the
controller giving me radar advisories wasn't already the one I needed to be
in contact with.

--Gary

> "it's about 2 miles at 12 o'clock."
> (Don't laugh; they're not always easy to find.) When he told me to
> contact TTD tower, I got a rather exasperated reply on my callin that I
> should have called them earlier. I meekly replied that I was with PDX
> approach until then, and he said "Oh well, that was ok."

The tower at Janesville, WI (JVL) actually made Mary turn around and
leave the airspace, fly three miles out, and call in AGAIN after
Rockford Approach (RFD) dumped her into their Class D airspace. JVL
and RFD certainly weren't on the same team that day.

We now dump Rockford Approach when we're ten miles out from Janesville.

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> The tower at Janesville, WI (JVL) actually made Mary turn around and
> leave the airspace, fly three miles out, and call in AGAIN after
> Rockford Approach (RFD) dumped her into their Class D airspace. JVL
> and RFD certainly weren't on the same team that day.
>
> We now dump Rockford Approach when we're ten miles out from Janesville.

I have read of pilots experiencing this at Caldwell, New Jersey, a class D
airport here in the busy northeast US. IMO, a crazy and potentially
dangerous way (added frequency congestion, distracted controller, 180
degree turn in busy airspace) to demonstrate a point.


--
Peter

Enquiry and reply can be found at...

http://www.mikeg.net/library/files/classc

LOL...

You're name isn't "Kris" is it? You don't fly on online on VATSIM do you?

One of the people I know who flies online couldn't find TTD!

In all seriousness, I fly out of Salem (SLE) and have flown in the Class
C airspace quite a bit. Seattle Center typically will hand you off or
dump you when heading north towards the PDX Charlie airspace. Your only
option is to contact PDX Approach. Yes, PDX Approach is VERY friendly.
I even toured the approach and tower facilities at PDX. It's quite
interesting. Too bad they have the age limits on controlling, since I
could probably change careers for it. ;)

I was on my long cross country as a student pilot and began heading the
wrong direction from TTD. I intended to head towards Mulino (4S9), but
instead was heading about 30-40 degrees east of the heading and was
moving towards Mt Hood (still a ways off). I saw it after a short bit
and as I was making my correction, PDX Approach contacted me to let me
know I was heading the wrong direction, too.

Btw, the Class D does not "invade" the Class C. It just butts up
against the Class C. You are not "busting" any Class D while in the
Class C because you are in contact with the TRACON (e.g. PDX Approach)
and they coordinate handing you off to other facilities while in the
Class C, such as TTD Tower.

PDX, TTD, and HIO all are part of the STARS system at PDX, so all 3
airports have a radar display. Salem, by the way, does not have any
radar display in its tower cab. They are strictly a visual tower.
Apparently, the ZSE radar facility due west of Salem does not cover
Salem that well and Salem is too far south for the PDX (RTX) radar to cover.

Have a great day!

Chris


skym wrote:
> Interesting query. At first I wondered how this situation ever arises,
> then I remembered my VFR flight into Troutdale (TTD) which is in a
> class D airspace that partially underlies and actually seems to invade
> the overlying Class C of Portland (PDX). I was on flight following
> from the southwest and couldn't find the TTD airport, so PDX approach
> was kindly giving me help... "it's about 2 miles at 12 o'clock."
> (Don't laugh; they're not always easy to find.) When he told me to
> contact TTD tower, I got a rather exasperated reply on my callin that I
> should have called them earlier. I meekly replied that I was with PDX
> approach until then, and he said "Oh well, that was ok."
> So, I guess I technically busted the Class D by not contacting them
> while I was still talking to approach (within Class C) but was already
> within 5 miles of the Class D airport. Frankly, since I was on radar
> with approach control I felt it was safer for everyone to stay with
> them until told to contact the local tower at TTD.
>

On 10 Apr 2006 18:29:51 -0700, "Mike Granby" > wrote
in . com>::

>The essence of the reply is that
>(i) it is necessary to be in contact with the specific TRACON
>responsible for the Class C rather than just any old ATC facility;


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1de74710b574072d8d35f1c6c7a7f4e8&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.17
§ 91.130 Operations in Class C airspace

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C
airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications
requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way
radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC
in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States)
providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and
thereafter maintain those communications while within that
airspace.

From the words of the regulation above it is clear that the words 'the
ACT facility' refer to the ATC facility with responsibility for flight
within their Class C airspace. But it could have been worded so that
there was less ambiguity.

> and (ii) that the receipt of VFR advisories does not absolve a pilot of his
>responsibility to contact that TRACON before entering the airspace and
>that he would therefore be in violation if he entered without so doing.

It is difficult to anticipate a situation in which Radar Traffic
Advisory Service within a Class C airspace is being provided by a
facility other than the one which has responsibility for that Class C
airspace.

>As I say, links to PDFs to follow.

Thanks for your effort in seeking official clarification of this
issue, sharing it here, and making the original documents available
on-line.

We have plenty of VFR aircraft talking to Salt Lake Center passing thru
my airspace. Sometimes we take a point out and let ZLC work them,
sometimes we will work them. The pilot is under no obligation to
contact me directly if he is talking to ZLC.



Robert M. Gary wrote:
> In some sense the letter seems to be a bit BS. How is the pilot to know
> what LOA are in place between the facilities? In some very busy areas
> (So Cal) its very common for approach to not hand you off to another
> tower (not theirs) until they put you almost on downwind. It will be
> interesting to hear from the controllers on the list. In non-busy
> airspace it would be easy to immagine being able to get enough radio
> time to query.
>
> -Robert
>

"skym" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Interesting query. At first I wondered how this situation ever arises,
> then I remembered my VFR flight into Troutdale (TTD) which is in a
> class D airspace that partially underlies and actually seems to invade
> the overlying Class C of Portland (PDX).
>

No invasion. There is a hierarchy of airspace, lower classes of airspace
give way to higher classes.


PART 71-DESIGNATION OF CLASS A, B, C, D, AND E AIRSPACE AREAS; AIR TRAFFIC
SERVICE ROUTES; AND REPORTING POINTS

§ 71.9 Overlapping airspace designations.

(a) When overlapping airspace designations apply to the same airspace, the
operating rules associated with the more restrictive airspace designation
apply.

(b) For the purpose of this section-

(1) Class A airspace is more restrictive than Class B, Class C, Class D,
Class E, or Class G airspace;

(2) Class B airspace is more restrictive than Class C, Class D, Class E,
or Class G airspace;

(3) Class C airspace is more restrictive than Class D, Class E, or Class G
airspace;

(4) Class D airspace is more restrictive than Class E or Class G airspace;
and

(5) Class E is more restrictive than Class G airspace.


>
> I was on flight following
> from the southwest and couldn't find the TTD airport, so PDX approach
> was kindly giving me help... "it's about 2 miles at 12 o'clock."
> (Don't laugh; they're not always easy to find.) When he told me to
> contact TTD tower, I got a rather exasperated reply on my callin that I
> should have called them earlier. I meekly replied that I was with PDX
> approach until then, and he said "Oh well, that was ok."
> So, I guess I technically busted the Class D by not contacting them
> while I was still talking to approach (within Class C) but was already
> within 5 miles of the Class D airport. Frankly, since I was on radar
> with approach control I felt it was safer for everyone to stay with
> them until told to contact the local tower at TTD.
>

You can't bust Class D airspace while you're in Class C airspace. If you
were two miles southwest of TTD between 1700 and 4000 MSL you were in Class
C airspace. If you were below 1700 you were in Class D airspace.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The confusion may come from that fact that if you are receiving flight
> following (or IFR) from center or some other facility and you fly
> through the class C you are ok, it is there responsibility to
> coordinate with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.
>

True in some cases, such as when part-time facilities are opening for the
day. But that's pretty much it. If you're about to enter Class C airspace
you shouldn't be talking to any facility other than the one responsible for
the Class C airspace.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> No, the approach controller was responsible for either coordinating
> your transition through the class D or handing you off. In truth, I
> believe there are areas of the class D that approach has agreements to
> send arrivals.
>

Radar facilities are required to coordinate the transition of thruflights,
but not of VFR arrivals.

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> But its being their responsibility doesn't mean that it isn't still the
> pilot's responsibility too (in the case of VFR flight following). In fact,
> the AIM (3-2-1d) says "It is the responsibility of the pilot to insure
> that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to
> entry into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. *The pilot retains this
> responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories*." (emphasis added).
>
> So even when I'm receiving flight following, I assume I need to talk to
> the tower or approach controller of the facility whose airspace I'm about
> to transit, except if the chart notes otherwise (for example, in the case
> of several satellites whose Class D airspace is underneath Boston's Class
> B, the chart says to contact Boston Approach to transit the Class D above
> a certain altitude). In practice, though, I can't recall any time that the
> controller giving me radar advisories wasn't already the one I needed to
> be in contact with.
>

A radar controller is required to coordinate the transition of Class D
airspace with the control tower when providing radar traffic advisories.
You are not expected to contact the tower yourself.


FAA Order 7110.65R Air traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
>
> I have read of pilots experiencing this at Caldwell, New Jersey, a class D
> airport here in the busy northeast US. IMO, a crazy and potentially
> dangerous way (added frequency congestion, distracted controller, 180
> degree turn in busy airspace) to demonstrate a point.
>

Crazy and potentially dangerous because of the 180 degree turn or because
you arrived unexpected and unannounced in busy airspace? What else would
you expect the tower controller to do at that point?

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> In some sense the letter seems to be a bit BS. How is the pilot to know
> what LOA are in place between the facilities?
>

Why would the pilot need to know?


>
> In some very busy areas
> (So Cal) its very common for approach to not hand you off to another
> tower (not theirs) until they put you almost on downwind. It will be
> interesting to hear from the controllers on the list. In non-busy
> airspace it would be easy to immagine being able to get enough radio
> time to query.
>

First of all a "handoff" is strictly a radar function. It is the action
taken to transfer the radar identification of an aircraft from one
controller to another if the aircraft will enter the receiving controller's
airspace and radio communications with the aircraft will be transferred. It
is NOT the transfer of radio communications.

If you're arriving VFR and you're almost on downwind within Class D airspace
and still on Center/approach frequency it's because the radar controller
forgot about you or was too busy with other duties to tell you to contact
the tower. Don't get into that position. Before entering Class D airspace
tell the radar controller bye-bye and contact the tower. If frequency
congestion does not permit the bye-bye then just contact the tower.

In article et>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > The confusion may come from that fact that if you are receiving flight
> > following (or IFR) from center or some other facility and you fly
> > through the class C you are ok, it is there responsibility to
> > coordinate with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.
> >
>
> True in some cases, such as when part-time facilities are opening for the
> day. But that's pretty much it. If you're about to enter Class C airspace
> you shouldn't be talking to any facility other than the one responsible for
> the Class C airspace.

What happens if you're within the lateral and vertical boundaries of a
part-time Class C when the tower opens in the morning?

> Crazy and potentially dangerous because of the 180 degree turn or because
> you arrived unexpected and unannounced in busy airspace? What else would
> you expect the tower controller to do at that point?

Personally, (as you know) I expected the RFD approach controller to be
on the same sheet of music as the JVL tower controller. They are 25.6
miles apart, and work together hand-in-glove MOST of the time.

Just not that day...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Personally, (as you know) I expected the RFD approach controller to be
> on the same sheet of music as the JVL tower controller. They are 25.6
> miles apart, and work together hand-in-glove MOST of the time.
>
> Just not that day...
>

What same sheet of music did you expect them to be on? You were operating
VFR in Class E and D airspace. There was no requirement for you to be in
contact with RFD approach at any time, there is a requirement for you to
contact JVL tower prior to entering Class D airspace, yet you blame RFD
approach for dumping Mary into the Class D airspace. Is RFD approach
directly responsible for the operation of the airplane when Mary is flying?

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> What happens if you're within the lateral and vertical boundaries of a
> part-time Class C when the tower opens in the morning?
>

Depends where you are and what you're doing. Shortly before we open in the
morning we exchange traffic information with Minneapolis Center and Green
Bay FSS. Arrival traffic is switched to tower or approach as appropriate,
overflights may be switched to approach or kept by Center. At the appointed
time we broadcast on all frequencies that we are open.

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Personally, (as you know) I expected the RFD approach controller to be
>> on the same sheet of music as the JVL tower controller. They are 25.6
>> miles apart, and work together hand-in-glove MOST of the time.

When I'm receiving flight following from Denver Approach I am always told to
contact the Class D tower (Jeffco, Centennial, Front Range) before entering
their airspace.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Crazy and potentially dangerous because of the 180 degree turn or because
>> you arrived unexpected and unannounced in busy airspace? What else would
>> you expect the tower controller to do at that point?
>
> Personally, (as you know) I expected the RFD approach controller to be
> on the same sheet of music as the JVL tower controller. They are 25.6
> miles apart, and work together hand-in-glove MOST of the time.

We have found the JVL tower folks to be missing a few fingers off the glove
from time to time.

> Just not that day...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Name's not Kris. This was the real thing.

Let's talk some common sense. I can't keep track of a myriad of rules,
but I (and other pilots) know when things make sense. If approach or
center is giving me radar vectors and talking to me, I expect him to
vector me away from unauthorized airspace. He knows all the rules about
air traffic control. I know how to fly the airplane and do what he
says. If some ATC guy dumped me off into some airspace and told me
goodbye, and I contacted that airspace frequency and HE was ****ed
cause he didn't know about me, well, I'd think it was the ATC guy that
dropped the ball. Just makes sense. I mean ATC is NOT SUPPOSED TO SET
TRAPS FOR PILOTS, fer cryin' out loud. They are supposed to at least
TRY and keep us OUT of trouble. If they can't coordinate us in, drop us
and give us the freq, but don't have us just fly on in and then say
goodbye......

Let's talk some common sense. I can't keep track of a myriad of rules,
but I (and other pilots) know when things make sense. If approach or
center is giving me radar vectors and talking to me, I expect him to
vector me away from unauthorized airspace. He knows all the rules about
air traffic control. I know how to fly the airplane and do what he
says. If some ATC guy dumped me off into some airspace and told me
goodbye, and I contacted that airspace frequency and HE was ****ed
cause he didn't know about me, well, I'd think it was the ATC guy that
dropped the ball. Just makes sense. I mean ATC is NOT SUPPOSED TO SET
TRAPS FOR PILOTS, fer cryin' out loud. They are supposed to at least
TRY and keep us OUT of trouble. If they can't coordinate us in, drop us
and give us the freq, but don't have us just fly on in and then say
goodbye......

What I mean is, if they can't coordinate us into the airspace in
question, then they should cancel our radar services BEFORE we are in
it, give us the frequency and we negotiate with the agency in charge.
Don't just vector us inside the airspace, and say goodbye without
coordinating with the agency in charge of THAT airspace. That is a
recipe for making EVERYONE mad, uncomfortable and ready to file some
paperwork, make some hot phone calls etc. Not good ATC work at all.....
And sorry about the double post above.....

Mike Granby wrote:
> > The confusion may come from that fact that if you
> > are receiving flight following (or IFR) from center or
> > some other facility and you fly through the class C
> > you are ok, it is there responsibility to coordinate
> > with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.
>
> IFR, yes, but flight following, no. That's the whole point of the FAA's
> reply. If you're getting flight following, it's still your
> responsbility to know where you are and to make sure you're talking to
> the TRACON before you enter the Class C. If Center doesn't hand you
> off, that doesn't absolve you.


Why not just query the controller when you are getting close to someone
elses airspace? A reminder never hurts anyone. But assuming things can.

This is correct. However if the center lets you keep your beacon code,
stays on his frequency and flies into the airspace of another ATC
facility (such as a class C airspace) w/o either arranging a handoff or
terminating the radar service, that center controller has goofed very
badly. Remember, the sector boundary of a class C facility is almost
always far larger than the class C airspace itself. For someone to get
into the class C airspace itself while staying on the center freq,
he/she would have been out of the center sector for tens of miles w/o
being noticed by the center controller.

"Doug" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Let's talk some common sense.
>

Always happy to do that. Your message appears unrelated to the one you've
responded to and has no quoted content, what exactly are you referring to?


>
> I can't keep track of a myriad of rules,
> but I (and other pilots) know when things make sense. If approach or
> center is giving me radar vectors and talking to me, I expect him to
> vector me away from unauthorized airspace.
>

A reasonable assumption, if you're eligible to be vectored.


>
> He knows all the rules about
> air traffic control. I know how to fly the airplane and do what he
> says. If some ATC guy dumped me off into some airspace and told me
> goodbye, and I contacted that airspace frequency and HE was ****ed
> cause he didn't know about me, well, I'd think it was the ATC guy that
> dropped the ball. Just makes sense. I mean ATC is NOT SUPPOSED TO SET
> TRAPS FOR PILOTS, fer cryin' out loud. They are supposed to at least
> TRY and keep us OUT of trouble. If they can't coordinate us in, drop us
> and give us the freq, but don't have us just fly on in and then say
> goodbye......
>

I have to assume you're referring to Jay Honeck's situation, where he
complains of being "dumped" three miles inside of the JVL Class D airspace
by RFD approach. Jay operates VFR only, he was just receiving traffic
advisories from RFD approach. RFD had no authority to issue vectors to him.
They could suggest them, but they cannot assign them. Nor could they assign
a route or altitude. They could not require him to remain on their
frequency, he was free to leave it at any time. It was solely his
responsibility to contact the tower prior to entering the Class D airspace,
approach is under no obligation to coordinate VFR arrivals with the tower.
They can, and some may, but there's really no reason to do it as the initial
call by the pilot generally contains all the information approach would be
coordinating anyway.

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> What I mean is, if they can't coordinate us into the airspace in
> question, then they should cancel our radar services BEFORE we are in
> it, give us the frequency and we negotiate with the agency in charge.
>

Yes, they should, but if they don't give you a frequency change before
entering the Class D airspace you should do it on your own.


>
> Don't just vector us inside the airspace, and say goodbye without
> coordinating with the agency in charge of THAT airspace. That is a
> recipe for making EVERYONE mad, uncomfortable and ready to file some
> paperwork, make some hot phone calls etc. Not good ATC work at all.....
> And sorry about the double post above.....
>

What situation are you referring to? What vectors?

"M" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> This is correct. However if the center lets you keep your beacon code,
> stays on his frequency and flies into the airspace of another ATC
> facility (such as a class C airspace) w/o either arranging a handoff or
> terminating the radar service, that center controller has goofed very
> badly.
>

Not necessarily. You may have missed a radio call.

One instance where you can get vectors under VFR is in Class B
airspace. Then consider the instance where you are headed into an
underlying Class D airport. Does the Class B guy have a responsibility
to get you set up to enter the D properly?

Like I said, I don't know all the rules and can't possible know them
all, but they should make sense. Doesn't make sense to me to get flight
following and then have the flight following guy NOT tell you about, or
get you set up for, entering airspace that requires communication,
clearance etc. At the very least he should cancel your flight following
well before you enter, if he doesn't want to coordinate the entry.

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> One instance where you can get vectors under VFR is in Class B
> airspace.
>

I believe you mean one instance where ATC may initiate vectoring of VFR
aircraft, VFR aircraft can get vectors wherever they are in radar contact.


>
> Then consider the instance where you are headed into an
> underlying Class D airport. Does the Class B guy have a responsibility
> to get you set up to enter the D properly?
>

Possibly, but it depends on local procedures.


>
> Like I said, I don't know all the rules and can't possible know them
> all, but they should make sense. Doesn't make sense to me to get flight
> following and then have the flight following guy NOT tell you about, or
> get you set up for, entering airspace that requires communication,
> clearance etc.
>

Perhaps what you don't understand is flight following. Flight following is
simply radar traffic advisories, nothing more than that. How could the
radar controller providing flight following "get you set up for" entering
Class D airspace? He wouldn't necessarily know about other VFR traffic that
may affect pattern entry or which runway the tower intends to assign.


>
> At the very least he should cancel your flight following
> well before you enter, if he doesn't want to coordinate the entry.
>

Yes, he should. I believe we covered that thoroughly. But if he doesn't
and you enter Class D airspace unannounced the airspace bust is yours alone.
So don't do it. If the controller doesn't terminate flight following then
terminate it yourself and call the tower before entering.

That of course could be the case, especially when the center is busy.

> VFR aircraft can get vectors wherever they are in radar contact.

Can they? I thought outside of class A or B, VFR traffic can only get
"suggestions".

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> VFR aircraft can get vectors wherever they are in radar contact.
>>
>
> Can they?
>

Yup.


>
> I thought outside of class A or B, VFR traffic can only get "suggestions".
>

You don't find much VFR traffic in Class A airspace. There are limitations
on where ATC can INITIATE vectoring of VFR aircraft, but the only
limitations on where VFR aircraft CAN be vectored are radar and radio
coverage. They need only request them.

You snipped a key portion of my sentence.

> When I'm receiving flight following from Denver Approach I am always told to
> contact the Class D tower (Jeffco, Centennial, Front Range) before entering
> their airspace.

Right. And they cut you loose in time to do so.

RFD didn't cut Mary loose until we were inside JVL's Class D --
something they had never done before.

We're smarter now, and cut THEM loose.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

> There are limitations
> on where ATC can INITIATE vectoring of VFR aircraft, but the only
> limitations on where VFR aircraft CAN be vectored are radar and radio
> coverage. They need only request them.

This is news to me. I thought... differently.

> You snipped a key portion of my sentence.

I didn't think it was a key point. That's a natural consequence of the
opportunity to learn.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> RFD didn't cut Mary loose until we were inside JVL's Class D --
> something they had never done before.
>

How did they prevent Mary from calling JVL tower prior to entering Class D
airspace?

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> There are limitations on where ATC can INITIATE vectoring of VFR
>> aircraft, but the only limitations on where VFR aircraft CAN be vectored
>> are radar and radio coverage. They need only request them.
>>
>
> This is news to me. I thought... differently.
>

See subparagraph g:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0506.html


>>
>> You snipped a key portion of my sentence.
>>
>
> I didn't think it was a key point. That's a natural consequence of the
> opportunity to learn.
>

What's the point of cutting a sentence in half yet retaining it as quoted
material?

Jose > wrote:

> Can they? I thought outside of class A or B, VFR traffic can only get
> "suggestions".

My home class C airport routinely issues vectors to VFR traffic for
departure and landing sequencing.

--
Peter

> What's the point of cutting a sentence in half yet retaining it as quoted
> material?

Brevity. I routinely snip as much as I can while retaining the essence
of the statement. I indicate that I've snipped. That way people who
haven't seen the original have context, and people who have don't have
to read it again (which gets pretty tiresome after a while).

Re:
> See subparagraph g:
>
> http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0506.html

> 5-6-1. APPLICATION
>
> Vector aircraft:
> [...]
> g. Operating VFR [...] when a pilot requests, or you suggest and the pilot concurs.

This raises in me another question, or perhaps several.

1: How should a pilot "concur"? Does an acknowledgement of the
suggestion and compliance therewith constitute concurrance?

If so, what is the operational difference between a vector and a
suggestion, once the suggestion has been taken? If not, how does a VFR
pilot turn a suggestion into a vector?

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>
> Brevity. I routinely snip as much as I can while retaining the essence of
> the statement. I indicate that I've snipped. That way people who haven't
> seen the original have context, and people who have don't have to read it
> again (which gets pretty tiresome after a while).
>

In this case you snipped too much, as the essence of the statement was not
retained. Nor did you indicate that you had snipped.


>
> This raises in me another question, or perhaps several.
>
> 1: How should a pilot "concur"? Does an acknowledgement of the
> suggestion and compliance therewith constitute concurrance?
>

A pilot concurs by complying with the suggested vector.


>
> If so, what is the operational difference between a vector and a
> suggestion, once the suggestion has been taken?
>

Once a suggested vector has been taken there is no difference between it and
one initiated by ATC.

In short, ATC can initiate vectoring of VFR aircraft wherever ATC is
required to separate VFR aircraft. The responsibility to separate brings
with it the authority to assign headings, routes, altitudes, etc.

> In this case you snipped too much, as the essence of the statement was not
> retained. Nor did you indicate that you had snipped.

Well, I suppose snippage was imperfect, but it was not inappropriate.
Here's the whole thing:

>> One instance where you can get vectors under VFR is in Class B
>> airspace.

> I believe you mean one instance where ATC may initiate vectoring of VFR
> aircraft, VFR aircraft can get vectors wherever they are in radar contact.

Your statement doesn't parse correctly as an English sentence. The way
I (still) interpret what I think you were trying to say would put a
semicolon where the comma is. That would make the last clause an
independent clause, which would stand on its own. I just stood it on
its own. If I made an error, I was certain that I would be subject to
Usenet flogging. :)

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> Your statement doesn't parse correctly as an English sentence. The way I
> (still) interpret what I think you were trying to say would put a
> semicolon where the comma is. That would make the last clause an
> independent clause, which would stand on its own. I just stood it on its
> own. If I made an error, I was certain that I would be subject to Usenet
> flogging. :)
>

You made an error.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > RFD didn't cut Mary loose until we were inside JVL's Class D --
> > something they had never done before.
> >
>
> How did they prevent Mary from calling JVL tower prior to entering Class D
> airspace?

Having read this whole thread, I am struck by the argumentative nature
of these replies. Mr Honeck has never said that Mary was prevented
from contacting the Class D airspace, and in fact has said that this
experience served as a lesson that they need to dump the Rockford
controllers in the future before entering the Class D airspace. He is
trying to present this as a lesson to us all which is well taken. The
lesson I think is to stay aware of where you are, and when to expect a
handoff (and please don't give me a lesson on the use of the word
handoff).

Yeah, I agree.

"swag" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Having read this whole thread, I am struck by the argumentative nature
> of these replies.
>

You don't believe there is a place in discussion for argument?


>
> Mr Honeck has never said that Mary was prevented
> from contacting the Class D airspace,
>

Mr. Honeck said that RFD didn't cut Mary loose until they were inside JVL's
Class D airspace. If he feels she needs to be cut loose by RFD in order to
call JVL, is she not then prevented from contacting JVL if she is not cut
loose?


>
> and in fact has said that this
> experience served as a lesson that they need to dump the Rockford
> controllers in the future before entering the Class D airspace. He is
> trying to present this as a lesson to us all which is well taken. The
> lesson I think is to stay aware of where you are, and when to expect a
> handoff (and please don't give me a lesson on the use of the word
> handoff).
>

It seems some people just don't learn these lessons. You may want to go to
Google Groups to review the thread "Slam dunk into Janesville" that appeared
in this group just over three years ago. Mr. Honeck presented an almost
identical scenario at that time. Every point that was made here was also
made then.